Roundtable Forum
Our 23rd Year
August 2020
In this issue.
Roundtable Opening Remarks
Cruiser aircraft used as scouts
Air Search Efforts of the Americans on June 4
Flight to Nowhere...more evidence?
The Flight to Nowhere
Robert E Taylor Sea2c 2nd
Bruno Gaido
USS Saratoga
Announcements and Questions
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The Battle of Midway Roundtable Opening Remarks
Its the last days of summer and the next Battle of Midway RoundTable newsletter is finally here. It has been a busy summer and it seemlingly went by in flash. Really was not all that over joyed to wake up to 40 degree weather this morning. Mother nature putting an exclamation point on the end of summer I guess. But it is Nebraska so probably be 90 in the next couple days.
This month we have some interesting topics. First off I'd like to thank Mark Horan for supplying information on the PBY's scouting on the morning of the 4th. He always has the information at hand and is gracious enough to share. Thank you very much. We also have some questions and comments about the Flight to Nowhere. Near the end are some pictures that I find interesting so I posted them with comments. I have collected a lot of photos, articles, etc. over the years and every once in a while I come across a photo or article while looking for something else that I think are just obscure enough that maybe some members would appreciate if they have not seen them previously. And last we have a bio of a Yorktown crewman during the battle. He recently celebrated his 96th birthday. Happy birthday Mr. Taylor.
Great to correspond with all of you again. And as always Enjoy.
Cruiser aircraft used as scouts
From Ron Russell August 14, 2020
Regarding the discussion about sorties flown by cruiser aircraft, they did in fact launch on scouting missions on occasion, including during the BOM. On June 6th, SOCs from the Minneapolis and New Orleans were sent off in search of Mogami-Mikuma, and the New Orleans planes are credited with finding the pair and reporting their position to the strike inbound from Hornet. See A Glorious Page In Our History (4th printing, March '98), pages 153-154.
--Ron Russell
Some Questions concerning the Air Search Efforts of the Americans on June 4
From Mark Horan August 23, 2020
For Dany Wenk;
Your issue with numbers in the AM PBY search from Midway on 4 June (and any other day) is that you are mixing two reports of events from different sources that are not actually covering the same event. There were two sources of PBYs on Midway on each day of the battle - and numbers actually varied each day. There was ONE group, VP-23, operating PBY-5 SEA PLANES out of the Sand Island Seaplane base using Midway Lagoon, and a SECOND group of PBY-5A amphibians operating from several squadrons operating, off the Eastern Island Airfield.
On the morning of the 4th, 11 PBYs of each type formed the search. Thus, from the OVERALL command point of view of the Naval Air Statio,n controlled by PatWing 1, launched 22 planes - 11 each from the two locations!
1. Eastern Island Search: Lt.Cdr. Robert Cecil Brixner, USNA27 commanding VP-44 and attached planes of VP-24 and VP-51:
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Sector
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Width
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Direction
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Type
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Bu.No.
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Side No.
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Call
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PPC
|
Notes
|
|
204.5o
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8.5o
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ccw
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PBY-5A
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05033
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44-P-1
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1V55
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Lt.(jg) Julius Sanders Cox, USN
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|
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213o
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8.5o
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cw
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PBY-5A
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04976
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44-P-11
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2V55
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Ens. Carl D. Bauer, A-V(N), USNR
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|
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221.5o
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8.5o
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ccw
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PBY-5A
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51-P-6
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3V55
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Lt.(jg) James Palmer O’Neil Lyle, A-V(N), USNR (51)
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|
|
230o
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8.5o
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cw
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PBY-5A
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|
51-P-2
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4V55
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Emil E. Glanz, Jr., A-V(N), USNR (51)
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|
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238.5o
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8.5o
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ccw
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PBY-5A
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04984
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44-P-9
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5V55
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Lt.(jg) David Silver, A-V(N), USNR (24)
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|
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247o
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8.5o
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cw
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PBY-5A
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04981
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44-P-7
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6V55
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Ens. Richard Vern Umphrey, USN
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|
|
255.5o
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8.5o
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ccw
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PBY-5A
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04998
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44-P-5
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7V55
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Lt. Shelby O. Cole, A-V(N), USNR
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|
|
264o
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8.5o
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cw
|
*PBY-5A
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04975
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44-P-12
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8V55
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*Lt.(jg) Robert S. Whitman, USNA39
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Shot down in flames by Chitose Air Group
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|
272o
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8o
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ccw
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PBY-5A
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04982
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44-P-4
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9V55
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Lt. Donald George Gumz / Ens. Jewell Hamon “Jack” Reid, USN
|
|
|
280o
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8o
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cw
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PBY-5A
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05039
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24-P-10
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10V55
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Lt.(jg) Frank G. Vessell, A-V(N), USNR (24)
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|
|
288o
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8o
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ccw
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PBY-5A
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05002
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24-P-5
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11V55
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Ens. Frank E. Long, A-V(N), USNR (51)
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Scheduled to fly 44-P-2 (04494) but see below
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|
Standby
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|
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PBY-5A
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05019
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24-P-
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Ens. Robert T. Lampshire, A-V(N), USNR
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|
|
OOC
|
|
|
PBY-5A
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04994
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44-P-2
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|
|
Collided with the propeller of SB2U-3 #12 while taxiing. Both became unoperational.
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2. Sand Island Search: Cdr. Francis Massie Hughes, USNA23 commanding VP-23:
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Sector
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Width
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Direction
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Type
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Bu.No.
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Side No.
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Call
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PPC
|
Notes
|
|
296o
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8o
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ccw
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PBY-5
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04429
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23-P-2
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1V58
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Ens. Theodore Stanley Theuson, USN
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Force landed at sea out of fuel; Found by USS Monaghan and abandoned; subsequently USS Ballard sent out and towed it in
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|
304o
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8o
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cw
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PBY-5
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04433
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23-P-4
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2V58
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Lt.(jg) Harold W. Lough
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|
|
312o
|
8o
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ccw
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PBY-5
|
04434
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23-P-5
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3V58
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Lt.(jg) William Edward Chase, USN
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Landed @ French Frigate Shoals
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|
320.5o
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8.5o
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cw
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PBY-5
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04435
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23-P-6
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4V58
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Lt. Howard Parmalee Ady, Jr., USN
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Landed @ French Frigate Shoals
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|
329o
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8.5o
|
ccw
|
PBY-5
|
04445
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23-P-7
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5V58
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Lt.(jg) Aloysius August Barthes, A-V(N), USNR
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Landed @ Lisianski
|
|
337.5o
|
8.5o
|
cw
|
PBY-5
|
04446
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23-P-8
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6V58
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Lt.(jg) James J. Murphy, A-V(N), USNR
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Landed @ Layson
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|
346o
|
8.5o
|
ccw
|
PBY-5
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04448
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23-P-9
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7V58
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Lt.(jg) Norman K. Brady, A-V(N), USNR
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Landed @ Lisianski; see below
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|
354.5o
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8.5o
|
cw
|
PBY-5
|
04461
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23-P-10
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8V58
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Ens. James Aaron Spraggins, USN
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See below
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|
003o
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8.5o
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ccw
|
PBY-5
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2388
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23-P-11
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9V58
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Lt. Thunnison H. T. Norris, A-V(N), USNR
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|
|
011.5o
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8.5o
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cw
|
PBY-5
|
2389
|
none
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10V58
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Lt.(jg) Frank Moore Fisler, A-V(N), USNR
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Landed @ Midway
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|
020o
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8.5o
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ccw
|
PBY-5
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2390
|
none
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11V58
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Ens. Francis C. “Cloudy” Riley, A-V(N), USNR
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Landed @ French Frigate Shoals
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|
Standby
|
|
|
PBY-5
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04431
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23-P-12
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|
Ens. Robert E. Slater, A-V(N), USNR
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Took Cdr. F. M. Hughes and Lt. J. R. Ogden to Pearl on the night of 3 June and returned on 4 June
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|
Standby
|
|
|
PBY-5
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04451
|
23-P-
|
|
|
Shuttled to Pearl to avoid attack on Midway
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|
OOC
|
|
|
PBY-5
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04428
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23-P-1
|
|
|
OOC after being damaged on take off, 3 June
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As a note, from their respective logbook entries, Brady flew 14.8 hours in 04448; Spraggins flew 14.4 hours in 04461; Ogden flew 16.0 hours in 04431
Hope this answers your questions!
Mark E. Horan
Flight to Nowhere...more evidence?
From David Luck September 5, 2020
I recently noticed something odd while perusing Clark Reynold's book Saga of Smokey Stover: From His Diary (Charleston, 1978). Elisha T. Stover was a Wildcat pilot aboard Hornet during the Tokyo Raid and Battle of Midway, and later flew off Saratoga @ Guadalcanal, did subsequent fighter ops from Henderson Field, returned to USA during early/mid-1943, then flew off Yorktown II during 1943-44 combat ops, all of which - EXCEPT MIDWAY - are covered by substantial diary entries; Stover is also mentioned several times and there's some footage of him during the well-known "Fighting Lady" documentary film. Finally shot down during the Truk Raid of 16 February 1944, apparently taken alive by the Japs, and later murdered there with other captured American aviators. At Midway Stover flew CAP over Hornet and, perhaps, against the Japanese attacks on Yorktown. But Reynolds - a competent Court Historian - seems here to have made a large excision in Stover's diary: there's a long, detailed entry for
11 May, 1942, when Enterprise and Hornet were still jockying about near New Caledonia.......and then nothing until 7 June, when there's a (supposedly) retrospective entry "on the last 3 days events"; which nonetheless includes this prior, ominous, predictive passage:
"back to P.H. on May 26....Air Group flown off and landed at Ewa Field after two hours to cover fifty miles due to eternal circling necessary to rendezvous and stagger in behind the CHAG (DL note: i.e., Stanhope Ring, c/o Hornet Air Group) and the torpedo planes (DL note: evidently a complete mess). All pilots expecting two days liberty at the Royal Hawaiian Hotel but Ring thought otherwise and let us set on our dead ends at Ewa standing a continual alert while the Enterprise group had their two days. As a result much grumbling and a near mutiny against CHAG Ring; couple of pilots getting in trouble through talking too much and expressing their opinion of CHAG to his face."
and even this flashback cuts off @ "....early next morning, June 4, we heard that Dutch Harbor had been bombed...". Then follows a Clark Reynolds precis of the pre-Bowen Weisheit Official Version of the BOM. I strongly suspect that scuttlebutt about the second, conclusive mutiny and disintegration of the Hornet Air Group was all over the ship by the late afternoon of 4 June, continued on subsequent days, Stover took note of it as he had done re 26 May, and Reynolds censored it out. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone on this forum who knows anything additional about Stover, & in particular, the current location of his original diary. Thanks to all (esp. to John Lundgren for his reply to my previous inquiry re Radioman),
DL
Editors Note: It is hard to determine what exactly the 'missing' entries contain if anything relevent to the flight. Things were at the time not all that clear as to what happened. All that was really known on Hornet on the afternoon of the 4th is that one more Japanese carrier was still at large and efforts were being made to find it and attack. Torpedo 8 had not one plane return and no information whatsoever on their fate. Ten of Fighting 8's fighters were lost and many of Bombing 8's aircraft had just returned from their stopover at Midway. I wouldn't read too much into this but if there are some missing entries it might be interesting to know what was added.
The Flight to Nowhere
From John Pooler August 18, 2020
Although it seems to be settled that the "flight to nowhere" went 265 degrees west, it still remains a puzzle about Clayton Fisher's memory of seeing smoke from Midway. Perhaps my question has been dealt with elsewhere, but I'll ask it here. If the flight went at 240 degrees, that would have put it between Midway and the Kido Butai. Given the large amount of air traffic going back and forth between the two, it seems that the Hornet Ait Group would have seen some of those planes, or been seen by them. Any comment?
As a person who is keenly interested in human behavior, it is common for all of to have "false memories", no matter how sincere or intelligent one might be. False memories creep in over time: A holiday event is displaced to the wrong holiday; someone was present who really wasn't, a scene from a movie was really in another movie, etc. Obviously Clayton Fisher would insist on his recollection even if it was really a false memory.
Thanks, John Pooler (Navy vet 1953-1957)
Editors Note: I am less convinced Clayton Fisher had a false memory due to the significance of the day. Some things are hard to seperate from particular events. While a memory might grow hazy over time it rarely is misplaced with another event. But again I'm no expert. What I do know is that he recalled what he saw and I for one believe him. What we gathered over time is that Hornets air group flew somewhat north of the Japanese carriers. How far north is hard to pinpoint but 265 seems to be the best estimate. And from that course the determination is that the smoke plume from the fires on Midway could not be seen from that distance. But we could discuss this for hours but in the end we were not there, he was, and if he saw a smoke plume in the direction of Midway Island then we take it as one piece of history that we might not be able to resolve.
As a sidebar. When I was in college I did a play about the Italian-Ethiopian war in 1936 called Peculiar Trials, and yes we did some odd plays back then. At any rate I played a part of the narrator and at the start of the second act I came out with a crystal ball, dropped it on the stage, where if I was lucky that night it actually shattered, and proceeded to tell the audiance how historians have to piece together history from fragments to arrive at the best guess as to what actually happened. One never puts the crystal ball back together again because after time piecs are scattered, lost, or destroyed, and one cannot recover enough pieces to completely reconstruct the ball. In the end you have something resembling the ball with a lot of empty spots.
The Battle of Midway certainly fits this anology. For years what Dive bombing squadron attacked which Japanese carrier was unknown for sure. What Clayton Fisher saw that day is just one of those pieces that we recovered that might fit somewhere on the ball but we are unsure exactly where.
Robert E Taylor Sea2c 2nd
From Mark R. Taylor September 4, 2020
Good Eve, just found this site, my father Robert E Taylor Sea2c 2nd served on the USS Yorktown CV-5. He just turned 96 and is still going strong. Are there any other Yorktown survivors that are on this site?
Thank You,
Respectfully, Mark R. Taylor
Editors Note: A few days prior to receiving this note from Mr. Taylor I was checking my Facebook groups to see if anything interesting was being posted and came across an entry from Mr. Taylor with a bio about his father along with a current picture of his father. And sorry I can't remember the group. However it was about Robert E Taylor along with a short bio. Robert E Taylor served on the USS Yorktown CV5 for the first 6 months of the war until Midway when Yorktown was lost. In the bio was his personal journey.
I sent a messge to Mr. Mark Taylor asking if I could publish the bio in our next newsletter. He graciously gave me permission. Thank you very Mr. Taylor, both of you. The link below his picture is to the PDF of his bio. Perhaps another shard of glass.
Robert Taylor USS Yorktown CV-5 Bio
Bruno Gaido
Editors Note: Below is an interesting photo that is tied to the Battle of Midway by one of its participants.
This is the remains of the SBD that had its tail sheared off by a Japanese Nell bomber that attempted to crash into the USS Enterprise. The action took place on February 1st, 1942 when five Japanese Nell bombers attacked the Enterprise from high altitude. The bombs missed and the five departed but one of the Nell's that was damaged in the attack piloted by Lieutenant Kazuo Nakai turned back apparently convinced he could not make the return trip. As the bomber closed on Enterprise and the anti-aircraft fire did not appear to be effective in curtailing the attack, Aviation Mate Bruno Gaido ran to a parked SBD, jumped into the rear seat, and opened fire with the twin .30's. He held his position despite the bomber seemingly aiming right at him which might have allowed him to concentrate fire into the cockpit of the on rushing bomber. At the last moment the pilot lost control and the Nell narrowly missed the Enterprise but the wing of the Nell cut off the tail section of the SBD and
swung it around as it crashed into the sea. The impact of the wing of the Nell caused some fuel to erupt from the Nell's tanks and ignite on the deck by the SBD. He got out of the SBD, grabbed a fire extinguisher and put out the small fire. Halsey who was watching the events unfold from the bridge ask that the man be brought to the bridge but Gaido was nowhere to be found worried that he would get into trouble for leaving his post during the attack. A search party found him after some time and brought him to the bridge where Halsey promoted him to first class for his actions.
Below is a US Navy photo of the SBD after the attack.
USS Saratoga
Editors Note: We all know that Saratoga just missed the Battle of Midway having completed repairs from the submarine torpedo that put her out of the war for the first 5 months of 1942. Ordered to depart San Diego and make haste to Pearl Harbor she left on June 1st arriving June 6 and departing the next day to link up with Enterprise and Hornet on June 8th. Here is a picture of Saratoga arriving at Pearl Harbor on June 6th. It is clear from the photo that her flight deck is loaded with replacement aircraft. Another one of those photos I find from time to time that maybe others have not seen.
Announcements and Questions
I-168
From Spiros Koliopoulos August 12, 2020
Always look forward to each issue. I have a question that I have long wondered. How was the I-168 able to approach the damaged Yorktown without having been detected by her accompanying destroyers? Thanks!
Sincerely,
Spiros Koliopoulos
Editors Note: Thanks for the question. From what I remember there is an excellent account in I-Boat Captain about the attack. I don't remember exactly all the details but he outlined it in the book. Several books on Midway give a description of the approach and attack as well.
Three Part Video on Battle of Midway
From Marty Bunch August 12, 2020
I believe this is new, it’s the 2nd vid series from Montmeyer and is very well done 3 parts.. The first one he did was from the Japanese perspective which I believe you posted in previous BOM.
Marty
Editors Note: Below is a link to all three of the video's. They are well done. Nothing new but I have sent the links to others interested in the battle and they enjoyed learning about the battle.
Part 1 The Japanese Perspective
Part 2 -Hiryu's Counter Strike
Part 3 - From the US Perspective
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